The Jeffrey Epstein Files 2: Interview with Mark Epstein

The best independent investigation into Jeffrey Epstein's death in a New York jail.

It is one of the most famous mysteries of our times.

In the summer of 2019, one of the richest men in America, Jeffrey Epstein, walked into a jail. He has been arrested for a widespread sexual trafficking network. He was connected with Presidents, politicians, billionaires and businessmen.

Thirty-five days later Epstein was found dead in his cell.

Immediately, the government declared that he committed suicide.

Hundreds-of-millions of people around the world did not believe them.

There have been conspiracy theories, books, movies, Internet memes and rumours. What there has not been is any proper, thorough official investigation of how Jeffrey Epstein died.

Nor has anyone taken the time to interview Jeffrey Epstein’s closest relatives to find out their perspective on this important case.

Until now…

Mark Epstein, Jeffrey Epstein’s brother, was never involved in his lifestyle… but after his death he was dragged into the inquiry. He speaks publicly and at length for the first time.

**

In the first part of this series you read/heard the evidence, indications and questions that show that Jeffrey Epstein may have been murdered in his cell the night of August 9/10, 2019.

Now, we would like to introduce you some of the people who believe this to be true. They are important, key people who are very close to the case. People who are utterly unconnected to the seedier side of Jeffrey Epstein’s life.

We begin with his brother Mark Epstein - a man, rich in his own right, who had comparatively little to do with his brother.

Thank you so much for joining us this morning Mark.

First of all, I just want to say right off the top, I'm sorry that we're speaking in these circumstances.

I know no matter what the controversy, no matter what the thing, it is an awful thing to deal with a family's death like this.

So, thank you for taking the time to speak to us.

Mark Epstein

Okay.

Declan Hill

When did you hear about your brother's death and how did you hear about it?

Mark Epstein

I was having breakfast at a hotel and CNN was on the television and a newsflash came across that Jeffrey Epstein was found dead by an apparent suicide.

And that's how I heard.

Declan Hill

And what were your thoughts? What were your feelings?

Mark Epstein

In the DOJ report, they said something about notifying the family.

They did not notify me.

I am the only family.

Jeffrey had no children, and our parents are gone, so I'm the only family to notify.

Declan Hill

And they didn't, on that morning you heard from the media as opposed to any official phone call or...

Mark Epstein

Exactly.

Declan Hill

As that awful news flashes across the screen, what were your thoughts then?

Mark Epstein

Well, at first, I thought, well, I had no reason to doubt the story.

And I figured, well, if that's the case, then Jeffrey decided to take himself out because he was facing a potentially long time in jail.

And I don't think he would want to live that way.

He didn't have any, like I said, he did not have any children to worry about.

Our parents were gone.

He knew he didn't have to worry about me.

So, I just assumed that was his decision and I respected it.

I wasn't happy to hear it, but I respected his decision.

I figured, well, if I was in his shoes at that point, I might have done the same thing.

So, I continued with my breakfast, and I knew I would have to deal with this, you know, immediately after.

Declan Hill

You've now changed your mind on this quite a lot.

What has made you change your mind?

Mark Epstein

Well, the first thing that changed my mind was the following day they did the autopsy.

And as the next of kin, I had the right to have my own pathologist there.

So, we hired Dr. Michael Baden, who's, like I said, you can't find a better pathologist than Dr. Baden just to witness the autopsy.

In case something was unclear, we would have the right to do a second autopsy once we got control of the body.

So, the autopsy was done by the city pathologist.

Not my pathologist, he was there witnessing it.

But after they came out of the autopsy, the city pathologist with Dr. Baden's agreement said that this looked more like a homicide than a suicidal death.

So, they couldn't call it a suicide.

And on the original death certificate, where it said cause of death, they had pending, meaning pending further investigation, because you can't claim the body without a death certificate.

So, they gave us a death certificate that said pending.

And it was questionable.

And then a few days later, the chief pathologist declares that it was a suicide.

So, questions start arising.

What investigating was done between, in those few days, and the chief pathologist who was not present at the actual autopsy?

What was she basing her determination on?

And then when you start adding up all the other facts that come in, you know, that the cameras were not working on that tier, that the guards weren't doing their checking and all the other, quote, screw ups, it starts to look less and less like a suicide, especially from the autopsy results.

For instance, we've been trying to find out for the last four years almost what position the body was in when it was found, when he was found.

And finally, we got that in the DOJ report, but the DOJ report does not match the actual autopsy findings on his body.

Declan Hill

Mark, before we get into that specifics, let me just take a step back, because it's the question that's going to be in every listener's mind, unfortunately.

But let's just talk a little bit about your relations with your brother.

How were they?

Mark Epstein

They were fine.

We didn't get together very much.

I hadn't actually seen him in a number of years, but we phoned each other and emailed each other.

We both have different homes in different cities, so we were not around in proximity to each other a lot.

And we had different lives.

We lived in different sort of worlds.

So, he had his life, I had mine, but we were always in touch.

Declan Hill

I mean, let me ask the questions that is on everyone's mind.

Were you in proximity with him on the U.S. Virgin Islands mansion?

Were you ever in that kind of lifestyle that your brother led?

Mark Epstein

No, we lived different lives.

The only time I was on that island was on the New Years of 2000, in the millennial New Year.

I went to see the island.

He had recently got it and I had never been there.

And he wasn't there when I was there.

I was just cruising around the Virgin Islands, and I stopped by to see the island.

So no, I was not at the island, other than that one time.

Declan Hill

So, to be crystal clear, to make sure our listeners, you're something of an unwitting bystander.

You've never had any connection with your brother's lifestyle, any of these kind of activities of your brother.

Yet at one point you had to hire armed security to protect you and your family after these stories came out.

Mark Epstein

Well, the security was because I started getting a lot of death threats.

And what happened was after my brother's death, the media tried to link me to his lifestyle.

And I had people following me.

I had people trying to dig up all sorts of dirt on me.

And I found it funny that once they realized that I was clean and I was not part of that, then they all contacted me for information for the movies that were made and the stories that were done.

They all wanted background information from me.

I didn't participate with any of them.

No, I had nothing to do with his lifestyle.

Declan Hill

So, let's go to July 6 of 2019.

Your brother's just been placed in prison.

Tell us a little bit about what happened to him in the prison.

Mark Epstein

Well, I don't really know what happened.

Was it July 6th or July 7th that he was arrested?

I'm not sure.

Declan Hill

The papers we're looking at say July 6th, but late in the evening, say 9.30, I think it's 9.32 p.m. on July 6th, so in the evening of that evening.

Mark Epstein

Okay, well, the next day his attorneys called me and told me that he was arrested.

And they also asked me if I would participate in his bail because it helps if other people participate in bail.

So, I said, “Sure.” I said, “put up my house in Florida for part of his bail.”

I knew he wasn't a flight risk.

And he was my brother.

I would help him out.

And that's when I became a public person.

Very few people knew that Jeffrey had a brother.

But now they found out that he has a brother.

And that's when they try to link me to his lifestyle and try to find dirt on me.

There's a building in New York City that I own.

That most of it and Jeffrey was using some apartments in there.

As far as I was concerned, he was just another tenant in the building.

I had no idea what he was using the apartments for other than I knew that his pilots would stay there when they were in New York and other people that worked for him live there.

But I don't live in that building and I don't manage that building hands-on.

Declan Hill

So, that bail process became, it was going to be possibly the richest bail proceeding in America ever. Tell us a little bit about that, please.

Mark Epstein

Well, the first bail, no.

He was putting up a lot.

It would have been one of the highest bails with what he was putting up.

I was putting up my house.

Another friend of his was putting up something for bail, but bail was denied, which is why he was stayed in jail.

But shortly before his death, his attorneys called me back and they asked me if I would guarantee his entire bail, in essence doubling it.

And with, I don't know how much, but whatever his other friend was putting up at that time, that would have been the highest bail in US history.

And the thing is they had a hearing that was coming up in a few days after his death to appeal the bail decision.

And now they were putting up what would have been the highest bail ever.

So, the question became like, why would Jeffrey kill himself a few days before this hearing?

Because if he got bail, then he'd be, you know, he'd be out of jail awaiting trial, but he'd be able to live in his house with an ankle monitor and armed guards and cameras all over the place, but he wouldn't be in jail.

So, it's sort of like, why kill yourself then?

You know, if bail was denied again, then I can understand it.

But it didn't make sense on that level either.

That he’d kill himself then.

Declan Hill

And that bail was north of $100 US dollars, was it not?

Mark Epstein

Yeah, probably closer to $200 million.

Declan Hill

So, in that kind of sums, with his numerous passports taken by authorities with his private jet…

Mark Epstein

Well, I believe he only had one valid U.S. passport.

They had found an old, expired passport from some other country, but I believe he only had one U.S. valid passport.

Declan Hill

So, he would have had his travel documents removed.

He would have had his private jet removed.

And at one point he was talking about paying for armed security to keep him in his house, but to make sure that he didn't skip the country and run off to Brazil or somewhere.

Is that right?

Mark Epstein

Correct.

Yes.

Declan Hill

So, you had a fairly, you know, it was an immensely controversial case at the time, and there was all kinds of image around the possibility of letting him out, but it was a fairly strong case for allowing this chap to have bail.

So, you would have thought, to get back to your point, that it's, you know, it's a reasonable chance to think that in a few days' time he might have got bail and got out of the hellhole that he was in at that time.

Mark Epstein

Correct.

Declan Hill

Mark, let's talk about a subject that would have some controversy.

Tell me what you can and what you feel comfortable with.

The night of August the 9th, that's Friday, he spends most of the day with his legal team.

He's brought back to his cell.

And then he's given permission to make a phone call at roughly 7.40 p.m. in the night.

Do you know who that phone call was to?

Mark Epstein

I do, yes.

Declan Hill

Do you feel comfortable disclosing who that is to me now?

Mark Epstein

No, I won't disclose that because I don't want that person being harassed either.

Declan Hill

Okay.

Could you at least know, or let me know if there was anything in that phone call that gave that third person, you know, reason to worry.

Was it a, you know, valedictorian, was it a farewell phone call?

Mark Epstein

No, not at all.

It was a normal call.

And that person was equally surprised to hear about Jeffrey supposedly killing himself.

There was no indication of that.

Also, his attorney, who I believe you spoke to, at the time, said that the last conversation we had with Jeffrey, I think within a day or two of the death, you know, they were planning the defense and Jeffrey was looking forward to defending himself against the charges.

Declan Hill

Yeah, absolutely, but then this phone call that you know the details of, is shrouded in some mystery and so to make sure that our listeners know, it was a personal call you've spoken to that person, and they said they were as surprised as you were to hear about Jeffrey Epstein's death the next day?

Mark Epstein

Yes, I know that they said that in the prison Jeffrey told the guards that he was calling his mother when they let him make that phone call.

Now our mother passed away in 2004, so you got a question who allowed him to make the phone call and why?

Declan Hill

Yeah.

Let's talk about the investigation into your brother's death.

What do you think of the federal investigation into your brother's death?

Mark Epstein

Well, the question becomes what investigation?

It doesn't seem to have been much of an investigation.

The EMTs that were called to the prison have never been questioned.

Declan Hill

I’m sorry, the emergency responders have never been questioned?

Mark Epstein

Yes.

The fire department EMTs have never been questioned.

And they told me that they were very surprised because they are always questioned, especially after high-profile deaths.

They've never, neither have the personnel in the hospital where Jeff's body was brought.

Another thing, I have photographs of some of that and I have a photograph of him in the hospital. On a gurney, obviously deceased, and he's wearing a hospital gown, you know, the kind where you put your arms in his sleeves, and it ties in the back.

Declan Hill

Yes.

Mark Epstein

He was not wearing that in the prison.

So, the question I have, which is not answered, is who decided to dress a dead body in a hospital gown?

Were they trying to make it look like he was alive when he got to the hospital?

Because I found out that an unwritten rule is that nobody dies in prison.

When they find dead bodies in prison, for whatever reason, they try to ship them to the hospital, and they're declared dead in the hospital.

They don't want them being declared dead in the prison.

Declan Hill

Sorry, you mean the prison authorities don't want, or want as few as possible, dead bodies found in their institutions because it looks bad for them.

Is that the implication of the unwritten rule?

Mark Epstein

Well, why they, the reason for it, I don't know, but I was told that they don't want dead bodies in the prison.

So, they ship them to the hospital and they're declared dead in the hospital.

So again, who, a question I also have is when the EMTs got to the prison, who was running the show there?

And I was also told that they had a handheld video camera going all the time when the EMTs got to the prison.

And when the EMTs got to the prison, they went to the infirmary.

The body had already been moved from the prison cell to the infirmary.

And that's another violation because when you find a dead body, you're not supposed to move them until the coroner shows up.

Now, also important fact is Jeffrey was dead for at least two hours before he was found.

The autopsy results show that could have been dead for six hours, but at least two hours.

So, he was clearly dead when he was found.

He couldn't be revived.

So, he was taken to the infirmary.

The EMTs got there.

And an interesting thing is I applied and went to the fire department to get the report.

It's called a PCR report that the EMTs fill out on every call they make.

It's the pre-hospital care report and it can't be found.

Declan Hill

What?

Mark Epstein

It cannot be found.

They don't have a record of it, and I have a videotape of me talking to the guy in the fire department and he's perplexed as you know as also why the file was not there.

Declan Hill

This is the file on at that time in the summer of 2019 the most famous inmate in the American prison system and they can't find it?

Mark Epstein

Yeah, they can't find the record from the EMT call.

They have a record of the phone call, and I'm trying to get a copy of that 911 call, which I still have not been able to get.

Declan Hill

The 911 call that goes from the prison to the first responders.

Can't find that one either?

Mark Epstein

No, and those are all taped.

All of those calls are taped.

That should be around somewhere.

I haven't been able to get that either.

Who made that call?

The question is, who made that call?

Declan Hill

And what did they say?

Mark Epstein

And what did they say?

Well, I haven't heard it.

Declan Hill

One of the other things that strikes me is the disrobing of the body.

Because again, we're talking about a potential crime scene.

Obviously, the cell has been disarranged as people come in and out and this and that and things could or could not have been removed, which is completely counter to what would normally be a crime scene.

But the bodies on a potential victim, their clothing is also a crime scene, particularly with DNA now.

Who touched his shirt?

Are there other marks, indications of potential violence on that shirt or on those clothes in any way?

Mark Epstein

Well, we don't have those.

He was wearing his orange prison shorts and t-shirt and those were cut off of him and there's photographs of those after they were cut off of him.

But where they are today, I have no idea.

Also, the ligature, the noose that was around his neck, they showed a ligature, you know, an orange bed sheet noose.

Now the guard has said, originally, they said the guard had said that he cut him down and then in the report it said he ripped it down.

But if you look at the photograph of that noose that they show, the long end of that noose has a hemmed edge.

It's not a rough edge.

So, it was neither cut nor torn.

It's a finished edge.

And it doesn't look like if it was tied to something, it would have been creased where the tie was, where the knot was.

It doesn't look that way.

But the fact that it's a hemmed edge means that it was neither cut nor torn.

So, they're showing a noose that doesn't seem to be the one and it doesn't match the mark on his neck.

The mark on his neck is very crucial to all of this.

Because in the DOJ report, they finally said that he was hanging in basically a seated position with his feet out in front of him and when they cut him down or tore him down that his buttocks were about an inch or an inch and a half off the ground.

So, if you picture somebody like that it's not a pretty picture but just about all of their body weight is hanging by the neck.

I mean there's some weight on his feet extended out in front of him but since his buttocks were off the ground the bulk of his body weight was hanging on his neck.

Jeffrey probably weighed about 180 pounds, 175 pounds.

So, if you look at pictures, which you can find online of people hanging, the ligature or the noose rides high up under your chin and goes up sort of behind your ears.

You can sort of imagine how, you know, how a noose would be on somebody's neck.

Well, the mark on Jeffrey's neck is more in the center of his neck and straight back as if somebody put a rope around his neck and strangled him with it.

That's what's called a ligature strangulation.

And the pathologists, Dr. Baden included, say that that mark looks like a ligature strangulation, not a hanging.

You know, plus there's the broken bone.

Declan Hill

Do you know if that ligature has ever been examined?

Have the federal authorities ever told you if that ligature has been examined for DNA or fingerprints or anything?

Mark Epstein

No.

As far as I know, it has not...

Declan Hill

No, it hasn't been examined or they haven't told you if it has?

Mark Epstein

I don't know if it's been examined.

I have not heard that it was examined.

Yeah.

Declan Hill

Yeah.

We, we've been spending months, you know, looking at the case and trying to figure out these, these key points and, and we can't find any indication that it was, ever examined, which seems bizarre.

Mark Epstein

Yeah.

Another important thing about the death is Jeffrey had these three broken bones in his neck, which, Dr. Baden, who has more experience with prison deaths than anybody, says he has never seen three broken bones in the neck from what's considered to be like a soft hanging, where you put a noose around your neck and sit down into it.

Those breaks are more consistent with basically like a karate chop to the neck, which I've since found out from some special forces people is sort of the the way that they kill people is you karate chop somebody in the front of the neck because that disables them and stuns them.

And then usually they just take the head and spin it quickly and crack somebody's neck as we see in the movies.

Declan Hill

Right.

Mark Epstein

In this particular case, it's more like somebody gave him a karate chop and then put a rope around his neck like a, like a garrote.

You know, it's like the, like what was it?

The Godfather.

Declan Hill

Yeah.

When did this, this evidence, or lack thereof of evidence start to change your mind?

And you started to think that your brother may have been the victim of a homicide rather than a suicide.

When did that come across your mind?

Mark Epstein

It first started after the autopsy, when the doctor, when both pathologists said that it looked more like a homicide than a suicide.

Believe me, my life would have been a lot easier if they came out saying, yes, this was clearly a suicide, because then I could have put this whole issue behind me as best as possible.

But now that it raised doubts, and then the thing that really clued me that something was amiss was when Bill Barr, the then Attorney General, came out and made a public statement saying that he personally saw the videotape of the camera outside of the tier because the camera in the tier was not working.

And he said he saw that nobody went in or out of the tear, and that convinced him it was a suicide.

And I thought, there's two things that don't make sense there.

Number one, he's the Attorney General of the United States.

I would imagine he's a pretty busy guy.

Why is he personally watching this videotape?

Couldn't he have one or two, you know, underlings watch the videotape and say, Bill, nobody went in or out?

You know, wouldn't that suffice?

And the fact that nobody went in or out, all that means is that if Jeff was killed, the killer was already on the tier.

Because there were seven other cells, each with either one or two people in them, meaning there were either seven to 14 people behind that door that would then have the opportunity to kill Jeff without going into or out of that door.

Declan Hill

And with virtually no oversight from the guards who were on the tier, because as we've seen, they were asleep and faking their log reports.

Mark Epstein

And no camera work.

Declan Hill

Yeah.

Mark Epstein

The other part of that is to, I mean, what Bill Barr says, you know, it sounds kind of logical, but then if you look at the other side, to think that maybe somebody got to that door, went in,

you know, killed Jeff, and then left completely undetected is asinine because there are like six levels of security before you get to that door, each with cameras, each with guards.

So, it would be impossible for somebody to get to that door, go in, do the deed and leave undetected.

So, again, our statement didn't make sense.

And when I heard this, I said, you know, he's covering something up because, yeah, I'm assuming he's an intelligent guy.

And for him to make that blatant mistake of thinking that because nobody went in or out, that the killer couldn't be on the other side of the door.

And I had been told afterwards, because a lot of people have been feeding me information, supposedly cell doors were left unlocked that night.

I was told that by two sources, that cell doors were left unlocked, which would have had to be…

Declan Hill

Can I share something with you, Mark?

Because you just said that two people have shared with you that the cell doors were unopened.

If I had heard that back in late August when my students and I began this investigation, with respect, I would not have believed you.

I would have thought that is just so bizarre that inside a prison in downtown Manhattan where they're holding high-profile inmates, extremely violent inmates, including among them the most notorious famous inmate in the American prison system at the time, your brother.

I just wouldn't have believed that.

Now having read the reports of just at very best chronic, widespread incompetency and fakery of log papers, notes, supervisors being arrested later for systematic drug trafficking, for systematic bringing in of drugs, of guns to this prison.

I'm not, I can't say I'm particularly surprised.

I'm still not sure because we obviously haven't tested this.

We haven't seen that ourselves.

But when you say a story like that, unfortunately now, months after looking at these documents and these cases, I'm unsurprised.

Mark Epstein

Another thing I'd like to add to that is that in the papers, we've all heard of the two guards that were on that night, Tova Noel and Michael Thomas.

Now, Michael Thomas came on shift in the middle of the night.

So, he wasn't there when the cells or the tier was locked the final time.

He's the one who found the body in the morning.

And there were reports about 10 o'clock the previous night when the cells and the tier was last checked.

There was Tova Noel and there was mention of an unnamed guard number one and unnamed guard number two.

So, the questions are, number one, why are they unnamed?

And who are they?

Were they actually prison guards?

Or was it one of them, somebody there who was sent there to leave the cell doors unlocked?

Declan Hill

Right, okay.

Now we're getting into speculation, but I take your point and I'm still shocked at how inadequate the investigation by the federal authorities has been it's just truly…

Mark Epstein

The only speculation part of that is that why they might have been there and if they left cell doors unlocked, but the fact that it was mentioned that they were unnamed guard number one and unnamed guard number two, that's not speculation that's fact.

So, the question becomes who are they, and where are they today?

Declan Hill

Four and a half years later after that awful Saturday morning in a hotel where you're looking up at the TV screen in the breakfast room and you see your brother's news of your brother's death.

What are your thoughts now on the federal authorities and this case?

Mark Epstein

Well, it just seems like it's a cover-up.

Why can't I find the records of his pre-hospital care report?

Why can't I get the 911 call?

We all heard the 911 calls when George Floyd was in trouble or a lot of the other notorious deaths in the country.

We get those things, but why is this one missing?

You know, so I don't believe what they're saying, especially the hard evidence that the marks on Jeffrey's neck from the ligature could not have been caused from the way they described he was hanging.

Also, the other issue with that is the issue of lividity.

If he was hanging for at least two hours by his neck, well, he should have had blood pooling in the back of his legs and his buttocks.

It's called lividity, which starts about an hour after you die.

Your blood settles in your body due to gravity because it's not being pumped through your system anymore.

So that's why you get these blotchy, purplish spots.

Now his legs look clear.

There is lividity on his back.

So, it seems like he might've been laying on his back for two and a half hours.

You know, that's why they say never move a dead body, you know.

Declan Hill

Right.

And if you were lying on his back, he wouldn't have been able to hang himself.

He'd be lying on his back.

So that doesn't happen.

Let me ask you one of the questions which will be in everyone's mind as they listen to this.

Do you have any financial interest in finding that your brother was committed, your brother had been murdered?

Is there any financial interest for this verdict to come through?

Mark Epstein

No, not whatsoever.

Traditionally, my brother and I were not in each other's wills because he didn't need my money and I didn't need his.

I actually, when I put my last vote together a number of years ago, I asked him if I had anything he wanted and he said, no.

So no, I, what happened when in his will it states that if there was no will that I'm his only heir and I would inherit his entire estate that's if there was no will, but there is a will which means I do not inherit his entire estate.

His money was put in and also, I'm not an executor of his will.

I have nothing to do with his estate.

The executors do not talk to me.

All of his assets were put into a trust.

From what I understand.

I am not a trustee.

I have not seen the trust.

You know, I believe that a lot of the assets that he had went to pay out the victims of the victims’ funds.

I don't know where that stands.

I don't know what if anything is left.

I have no interest in that.

It's not mine.

Declan Hill

And you have no interest in, say, a wrongful death lawsuit if this is shown to be a homicide?

Mark Epstein

No, first of all, I wanted to file a wrongful death lawsuit, but just as his brother, I don't have the right to, surprisingly, because I was not dependent on him.

I actually asked the executives of his estate if they would, they have the right to sue.

They didn't want to.

I asked if they would give me the right to sue for wrongful death, which they could have done, and they declined.

And when I asked them why,

They said, well, it would be costly, and they had other things to worry about.

And I said, I would fund the entire thing.

It wouldn't cost them a penny.

And if a wrongful death suit was successful, that could have been more money put into his estate for the victim fund.

I wasn't looking to get money for myself.

I don't need his money.

Declan Hill

So, there's no financial motivation to say, “Oh, my brother was murdered in a jail rather than what the official line is that he committed suicide.”

Mark Epstein

No, absolutely not.

Actually, his death has cost me money between legal fees and security.

Yeah, this is not a profit center for me, trust me.

Declan Hill

Let me ask you a final question, Mark, and I really appreciate your time on this.

And I know for everybody else, your brother's death has been one more chapter in kind of, you know, a sordid celebrity tale.

But for you, it's deeply painful.

And I'm wondering if this talk of your brother's inability to commit suicide, maybe a murder, is that part of a grieving process?

Do you think it's possible that this might be something where you just don't want to admit to yourself that this is what happened?

Mark Epstein

No, like I said, it would have been easier for me if I was clear that it was a suicide.

I would have preferred that it was clear, a suicide, because then I could put it to rest.

The fact that I don't believe it's a suicide.

Nor does basically anybody else who was close to this.

No, it's not a grieving process.

I grieved for my brother's loss already.

I've already lost my parents.

So, it's not the first family death I've had to deal with.

I've had others.

No, the grieving is over.

It now is just trying to find facts of my brother's untimely death, whether he was guilty or not, or whether he committed suicide or was murdered.

He shouldn't be dead.

He was under the care of the federal government in the prison but the questions that I have that I would like to get answers to are, where is the fire department PCR report?

Where is the copy of the 911 call?

Where are the videotapes from the handheld camera that was present the entire time the EMTs were in the prison and the hospital?

Who was in charge in the prison?

Who was directing the shots?

Who was unnamed guard number one?

Who was unnamed guard number two?

Who were the prisoners on the tier that night?

And where are they now?

When did they first arrive on that tier?

And when did they leave?

Because I was told that a lot of prisoners were transferred out after Jeffrey's death.

So, is it possible that a prisoner was planted in there to do this?

Doors were left unlocked.

Now this is speculation.

With doors left unlocked, so this plant could go in there, kill Jeff, and then a couple of days later, he's transferred out and disappears into the ether.

So, these are the questions I have, but who was on that tier?

Who was placed on that tier the week or so before the death?

Because someone who was there for six months or someone who was there for two months, who was there before Jeff was arrested, I would guess that they weren't planted there to do something like this.

But if there was somebody planted there the week before Jeffrey died,

and then was transferred out.

Like I said, who are those inmates and where are they today?

Declan Hill

And have they ever been interviewed?

Have they been subpoenaed and interviewed?

And by the way, what about the guards?

How many of these guards were interviewed?

Because we can see from the records that there were murderers, there were rapists, there were serial drug traffickers, there were serial sex assaulters in the MCC guards and their supervisors during 2019.

So, how many of them were interviewed?

And how many of them were subpoenaed?

And my final question to add to your list is, why has that cloth noose never been analyzed for DNA?

It seems such a simple process to do, would end many of these questions that you quite rightly have, and all the speculation of just like there were no other DNA on this and we could see this clearly and properly.

Mark Epstein

Good question.

Declan Hill

Mark, thank you so much for your time.

Mark Epstein

You're welcome.

I just hope somebody gets enthused to investigate this.

Declan Hill

Thank you for reading/listening to this episode of CrimeWaves, a special interview with Mark Epstein, the brother of Jeffrey Epstein, who believes strongly, still, four-and-a-half years after his brother’s death in a New York jail, that he was murdered.

On the next part of the series, we will have a feature interview with one of Jeffrey Epstein’s lawyers who met him with professionally in the prison and spoke to him at length just days before his death. He, too, does not believe that Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide - he thinks it was murder.

On a final note, please, if you liked this article - rate, review, subscribe. If you have a question or you think there is something that we missed do, please, write in the comments. We read them all and we will respond.

Thank you.